This should be everyones response to the crazies that stand outside clinics.
Sunday, March 20, 2011
Thursday, September 30, 2010
Sunday, February 7, 2010
As the Daily Kos web poll showed what I have been experiencing on my facebook page is a real phenomonon and I was not just seeing isolated thouhgts and hate from isolated wingnutters. No what the Daily Kos shows is that the thoughts from these 'conservatives' is mainstream Republican crazyness. Here is great analysis on this subject from Alter Net.
Wednesday, February 3, 2010
Vegas...Really you are angry about Vegas?
Yeah I think companies that take taxpayer funds to stay in business, shouldn't be sending their executives to Vegas to party either. Now when they are out of 'trouble' they can do whatever they want, but if they are going to take my money I want it going to fixing whatever caused the 'trouble' in the first place and unless the company headquarters is in Vegas then I think my money is better spent by them staying at home fixing their problems.
Or they can pay for the trips themselves, they can afford it with the crazy bonuses they give themselves. Or even better they shouldn't have been allowed to be in the position to put the world on the brink of financial collapse in the first place. What a novel idea, I wonder how you could do that....oh yeah by having smart sensible regulations.
Or they can pay for the trips themselves, they can afford it with the crazy bonuses they give themselves. Or even better they shouldn't have been allowed to be in the position to put the world on the brink of financial collapse in the first place. What a novel idea, I wonder how you could do that....oh yeah by having smart sensible regulations.
Thursday, January 28, 2010
Don't argue the argument, argue your point of view
OK so a friend on Facebook posted a Glenn Beck video and says:"...just like this clip says at the end.... Educate yourself and read the bill! Long but worth the time! If you have doubt about this look it up yourself."
I will not post the video as I do not want to spread the awful thing anymore than the mentions that I will give it here, if you want to see it google this (Know the TRUTH about the Government Health Care Bill H.R.3200 - Key Points) it will be the first on the list.
In any case I do what the poster asks all of us 'concerned citizens' to do, look up each of the points that Beck makes. Of course they are all lies. The funny thing was what I found when I was looking up some of the details: this site (Absolutely awesome and I bow before you Milt Shook)it refutes all of the lies in the video almost word for word despite NOT BEING A SITE ABOUT THE VIDEO . It is a site that refutes a conservative blogger's post. So not only is the video essentially a pack of lies, Glenn Beck (Or we should we tip the hat to Olbermann and just call him Lonesome Rhodes??) has stolen all of the content. In any case back to the debate. So after doing a little (bout an hour) of research I posted my findings.
I was expecting to get a good yelling at and was not disappointed. What I didn't figure on was getting the 'I was a single mother' card played on a discussion about a video and the video's content. Maybe, I thought I would get a rebuttal on what I had posted, not an attack based on a crazy collection of personal history, subliminal racism, and a few personal attacks to round it out. Not once is the original post or what I said in it addressed. Well maybe that was to much to ask for. So here is my posts as well as the relevant responses, as well as some form someone who decided to support kicking poor people when they were down would be an excellent idea (my commentary will be blue and all blue posts are done here for this discussion on the blog)
MY POST:Wow, not only is Glen Beck a liar hes a lazy liar. Each of these 'facts' are bogus and a cursory glance at it and the bill confirm this. Oh and he's lazy because he stole all these from a conservative blogger Alan Caruba from almost a year ago. Just a taste of the lies...he says page 22 mandates an audit of employers who self insure, well if you read the text it basically says that everyone who self insures has to prove that they can pay for it, basically this is to prevent a company that DOES NOT USE AN INSURANCE COMPANY from telling employees they are insured then the company not insuring them, basically they must prove they can pay what they promise they can, insurance companies have to do this today and sounds like a good idea to me.
That was too fun...lemme do one more... how about lie, I mean Beck fantasy fact # 2: Rationed health care (sound the lighting and scary music)!!! Well this actually talks about Annual limitation...oh no! that says limitation!!! well sorry Beck but what that means in grown up land (if you bother to look at the language in the bill) it is saying that this is a limit on how much a patient will pay, if the agency implementing the bill decide to user a version of cost-sharing (look it up if you are interested to know what that means).
Now I will admit I was a bit snarky here but really...the video is just to stupid.
THE RESPONSES I would like for you to not be so blind to what is REALLY in this bill! I guess we really won't have to worry about it now though since Brown WON! One of the most BLUE states EVER doesn't even want this bill to pass. Even people in Canada that have a government run health care are SCARED for this country.... WAKE up PLEASE!!!!
Here we have personal attack number one, I am the one who is blind because I do not understand what is really in the bill...after reading the bill. Then some cheering that the government is essentially shut down now that there is no 60 seat Democrat majority. Then I am the one who should wake up...personal attack number 2. But that was just to get the engines running.
I am so sick of supporting people that sit at home and spit out 15 babies NEVER working! I have NO problem with people that get up every morning, go to work, but can't afford insurance getting help. Don't RAM it down my throat saying I HAVE to take the insurance. I am all for getting rid of the pre-existing condition clause. I am NOT going to be forced to take insurance I don't want.... THEN having to pay a penalty if I CHOOSE NOT to accept the Obamacare!!!!
Down here in the south, this is what you would call a racist post. I have zero doubt she is talking about people other than white people, but it is racist in a way that is not provable. Also I do not think that she thinks the post is racist because even though she thinks that it is mostly those 'others' she knows that there are plenty of white n words too. Again this would never be said out loud, to anyone outside of 'safe' people, but I know this is the case. I will comment further on the economics of this post later, it is a re-occurring theme in the wingnut book of basic truths. Then the lie about getting insurance that they don't want...as if they have a choice today. I work at a place with really good health care benefits. Last year we had a choice between plans but not between companies, unless I wanted to get it on my own...yeah right. I don't know . Then the old lie about a penalty if you don't choose a government option. In the bill cited in the video, in that version of the bill, there was only a penalty if you could get insurance but don't. Then you would pay a 2.5% tax.
I raised my son without ANY government assistance. I put him through private school There were many times I struggled but I NEVER turned to the government to help me raise my son who I CHOSE to bring in this world!
Now we get to the real crazy. We are to the point where we have officially left the original post and have 'gone off the reservation'. Not even sure what to say about this, mind you I know all this stuff about this person and I will not deny that she had had it rough for a time, and that there were certainly struggles along the way, but there was also (and I am absolutely sure it would have been mentioned if there was) never a time where this poster didn't have health insurance and got sick. Also we are talking educated white people here, so no institutional racism would come this persons way in any case. This classic logical fallacy is another one of the more common ones when you are talking to a wingnut: because I made it everyone can make it. Then that last little bit there...is that a shout out to right to lifers???? wow where did that come from!!! Good job, we must remember to always find a way to talk about abortion when discussing health care. It rallies the troops, oh and look here they come!
Well said *** I agree with you. If people would understand each individual is responsible for themselves not the government. Everyday each of us make decisions for ourselves and our family. People today look at welfare as a way of life. It was started to assist for a short period of time to help get you back on your feet. My blood pressure goes up every time I start on this mess.
Conservatism with libertarian tendencies here, and mind you I have no idea who this person is. This could actually be debated, but I thought that debate was done with about 100 years ago. We would rather give a little to help others than let them die on the street as the logical consequences of a free market. I will comment more on this little nugget that is also in the wingnut book of basic truths. This is back to the person who was ranting above.
I totally agree ******! My BP goes up when people tell me I should support something I don't believe in supporting.Thank ya Laurie! I am pretty proud of him. :)
So my response to this started out as a four page rebuttal of each and every piece of crazy sh^t that was posted in these posts, avoiding the racist stuff and focusing back to the original post. Then I cut it back to about a page. Then I did what democrats do best and say that I was sorry if the post was taken personally, it was meant to show how many lies were in the video, and that there is plenty of room to debate health care reform but the video had no place in that debate. This did not get a response. But the poster of the video has not posted any wingnut stuff for almost a week now. So maybe I did do some good.
But to the point of this post. In the exchange with this person I was given several 'facts' from this proudly proclaimed republican that permeate the culture especially here ins the south. We live at a time where more people are plugged in than ever before. More people get news and information at a rate that just one generation ago could not have fathomed. The ability to find out about the world has never been easier....then why is it so difficult to get simple facts to people? Is there to much noise? To much polarization? The poster here is reading from the Republican handbook on much of this stuff, fed and reinforced by Fox news, the poster revels in the idea that her party will now obstruct the passage of a bill that would insure 20 million people. Would have cost the poster little to nothing, and reduced the number of premature deaths of scores of people, not to mention the minor issues that the uninsured can't get fixed (such as my friend who broke his finger and taped it himself). But the poster doesn't believe any of that. No APPARENTLY AMERICANS ARE SO INCOMPETENT IN THIS PERSONS VIEW THAT WE WOULD BE GIVING UP ALL OF OUR FREEDOMS JUST FOR ....I'm not sure what it is that they are so scared of...actually I do think I know what the smarter Republicans are afraid of...they are afraid that people will like it, then the republicans who tried to stop the reform will get booted out of office. That is what I think. That is why they are so vehemently opposed to reform.
I will not post the video as I do not want to spread the awful thing anymore than the mentions that I will give it here, if you want to see it google this (Know the TRUTH about the Government Health Care Bill H.R.3200 - Key Points) it will be the first on the list.
In any case I do what the poster asks all of us 'concerned citizens' to do, look up each of the points that Beck makes. Of course they are all lies. The funny thing was what I found when I was looking up some of the details: this site (Absolutely awesome and I bow before you Milt Shook)it refutes all of the lies in the video almost word for word despite NOT BEING A SITE ABOUT THE VIDEO . It is a site that refutes a conservative blogger's post. So not only is the video essentially a pack of lies, Glenn Beck (Or we should we tip the hat to Olbermann and just call him Lonesome Rhodes??) has stolen all of the content. In any case back to the debate. So after doing a little (bout an hour) of research I posted my findings.
I was expecting to get a good yelling at and was not disappointed. What I didn't figure on was getting the 'I was a single mother' card played on a discussion about a video and the video's content. Maybe, I thought I would get a rebuttal on what I had posted, not an attack based on a crazy collection of personal history, subliminal racism, and a few personal attacks to round it out. Not once is the original post or what I said in it addressed. Well maybe that was to much to ask for. So here is my posts as well as the relevant responses, as well as some form someone who decided to support kicking poor people when they were down would be an excellent idea (my commentary will be blue and all blue posts are done here for this discussion on the blog)
MY POST:Wow, not only is Glen Beck a liar hes a lazy liar. Each of these 'facts' are bogus and a cursory glance at it and the bill confirm this. Oh and he's lazy because he stole all these from a conservative blogger Alan Caruba from almost a year ago. Just a taste of the lies...he says page 22 mandates an audit of employers who self insure, well if you read the text it basically says that everyone who self insures has to prove that they can pay for it, basically this is to prevent a company that DOES NOT USE AN INSURANCE COMPANY from telling employees they are insured then the company not insuring them, basically they must prove they can pay what they promise they can, insurance companies have to do this today and sounds like a good idea to me.
That was too fun...lemme do one more... how about lie, I mean Beck fantasy fact # 2: Rationed health care (sound the lighting and scary music)!!! Well this actually talks about Annual limitation...oh no! that says limitation!!! well sorry Beck but what that means in grown up land (if you bother to look at the language in the bill) it is saying that this is a limit on how much a patient will pay, if the agency implementing the bill decide to user a version of cost-sharing (look it up if you are interested to know what that means).
Now I will admit I was a bit snarky here but really...the video is just to stupid.
THE RESPONSES I would like for you to not be so blind to what is REALLY in this bill! I guess we really won't have to worry about it now though since Brown WON! One of the most BLUE states EVER doesn't even want this bill to pass. Even people in Canada that have a government run health care are SCARED for this country.... WAKE up PLEASE!!!!
Here we have personal attack number one, I am the one who is blind because I do not understand what is really in the bill...after reading the bill. Then some cheering that the government is essentially shut down now that there is no 60 seat Democrat majority. Then I am the one who should wake up...personal attack number 2. But that was just to get the engines running.
I am so sick of supporting people that sit at home and spit out 15 babies NEVER working! I have NO problem with people that get up every morning, go to work, but can't afford insurance getting help. Don't RAM it down my throat saying I HAVE to take the insurance. I am all for getting rid of the pre-existing condition clause. I am NOT going to be forced to take insurance I don't want.... THEN having to pay a penalty if I CHOOSE NOT to accept the Obamacare!!!!
Down here in the south, this is what you would call a racist post. I have zero doubt she is talking about people other than white people, but it is racist in a way that is not provable. Also I do not think that she thinks the post is racist because even though she thinks that it is mostly those 'others' she knows that there are plenty of white n words too. Again this would never be said out loud, to anyone outside of 'safe' people, but I know this is the case. I will comment further on the economics of this post later, it is a re-occurring theme in the wingnut book of basic truths. Then the lie about getting insurance that they don't want...as if they have a choice today. I work at a place with really good health care benefits. Last year we had a choice between plans but not between companies, unless I wanted to get it on my own...yeah right. I don't know . Then the old lie about a penalty if you don't choose a government option. In the bill cited in the video, in that version of the bill, there was only a penalty if you could get insurance but don't. Then you would pay a 2.5% tax.
I raised my son without ANY government assistance. I put him through private school There were many times I struggled but I NEVER turned to the government to help me raise my son who I CHOSE to bring in this world!
Now we get to the real crazy. We are to the point where we have officially left the original post and have 'gone off the reservation'. Not even sure what to say about this, mind you I know all this stuff about this person and I will not deny that she had had it rough for a time, and that there were certainly struggles along the way, but there was also (and I am absolutely sure it would have been mentioned if there was) never a time where this poster didn't have health insurance and got sick. Also we are talking educated white people here, so no institutional racism would come this persons way in any case. This classic logical fallacy is another one of the more common ones when you are talking to a wingnut: because I made it everyone can make it. Then that last little bit there...is that a shout out to right to lifers???? wow where did that come from!!! Good job, we must remember to always find a way to talk about abortion when discussing health care. It rallies the troops, oh and look here they come!
Well said *** I agree with you. If people would understand each individual is responsible for themselves not the government. Everyday each of us make decisions for ourselves and our family. People today look at welfare as a way of life. It was started to assist for a short period of time to help get you back on your feet. My blood pressure goes up every time I start on this mess.
Conservatism with libertarian tendencies here, and mind you I have no idea who this person is. This could actually be debated, but I thought that debate was done with about 100 years ago. We would rather give a little to help others than let them die on the street as the logical consequences of a free market. I will comment more on this little nugget that is also in the wingnut book of basic truths. This is back to the person who was ranting above.
I totally agree ******! My BP goes up when people tell me I should support something I don't believe in supporting.Thank ya Laurie! I am pretty proud of him. :)
So my response to this started out as a four page rebuttal of each and every piece of crazy sh^t that was posted in these posts, avoiding the racist stuff and focusing back to the original post. Then I cut it back to about a page. Then I did what democrats do best and say that I was sorry if the post was taken personally, it was meant to show how many lies were in the video, and that there is plenty of room to debate health care reform but the video had no place in that debate. This did not get a response. But the poster of the video has not posted any wingnut stuff for almost a week now. So maybe I did do some good.
But to the point of this post. In the exchange with this person I was given several 'facts' from this proudly proclaimed republican that permeate the culture especially here ins the south. We live at a time where more people are plugged in than ever before. More people get news and information at a rate that just one generation ago could not have fathomed. The ability to find out about the world has never been easier....then why is it so difficult to get simple facts to people? Is there to much noise? To much polarization? The poster here is reading from the Republican handbook on much of this stuff, fed and reinforced by Fox news, the poster revels in the idea that her party will now obstruct the passage of a bill that would insure 20 million people. Would have cost the poster little to nothing, and reduced the number of premature deaths of scores of people, not to mention the minor issues that the uninsured can't get fixed (such as my friend who broke his finger and taped it himself). But the poster doesn't believe any of that. No APPARENTLY AMERICANS ARE SO INCOMPETENT IN THIS PERSONS VIEW THAT WE WOULD BE GIVING UP ALL OF OUR FREEDOMS JUST FOR ....I'm not sure what it is that they are so scared of...actually I do think I know what the smarter Republicans are afraid of...they are afraid that people will like it, then the republicans who tried to stop the reform will get booted out of office. That is what I think. That is why they are so vehemently opposed to reform.
Monday, January 25, 2010
Health Care and and average wingnut
I was amazed this week (well not really) when a Facebook friend broke his finger and then fixed it with a Popsicle stick wrapped in tape. He never mentioned how the break happened but he did post pictures, so I will assume the break was legit. My friend has no insurance. He owned a small business that recently went under, so I am guessing that that is when his insurance was canceled. I am not 100% sure what kind of wingnut my friend is but I am 100% sure his politics are way out there. Just two weeks ago he posted a rant and some links to sites that purport that the government has been taken over by communists. Going in the sites was like drowning on dry land, it didn't make any sense but it was an awful experience anyway. Now those of you who know me know that I can get a little outspoken when I see this sort of thing, but this time I didn't say a word, I wanted to see what his friends would post. I knew that because of who this guy is and that other folks like him would be posting I was expecting to see some crazy stuff posted, I was not disappointed. I did expect someone ANYONE to point out that this is exactly what health care reform was about: if you don't have insurance then you could expect to have some sort of help, and then I figured that that person would get shouted down. I was very mistaken, not a single defender of health care spoke up, and the following posts went up unanswered.
The first wingnut to post makes a snide remark that this is how everyone will live if there is health care reform...ok...that is the exact opposite of reform but also tame and expected. But that was just the primer for wingnut number two, a more vocal and misinformed person who should be used as an anecdote for the state of paranoia that the 'typical' American has been infected with. Person number two starts this little gem:
"...if this Commie Health care bill passes, you will pay $16,000 per year ($8k ea)... and still need the Popsicle stick."
That one is not to far off, according to the media matters website it would be $5300 for individuals and $15,000 for families. The person in question did not have insurance so $15,000 may be close for his family. This ignores the fact that current averages for health insurance is over $7000 per year per person (Google it if you want a citation). So I guess the argument is that reform would not be effective. OK I will go with that, this is a reasonable argument to make, health care reform may not actually reform more, stagnate the market. Fine, a debate can be had with this. But the writer cannot stop there, no, the need to spread the crazy is way to strong. Here is the next post:
"It is when you have a family of 4 ---- that's when they will charge for 3 and give you the 4th ^free^...$24,000.00 per year on a basic plan."
What? Where does this stuff come from??? The only thing I can find with a delta between health care and $24000 is that this is the amount that if an insurance costs this or more it is subject to a huge tax. This is the Cadillac tax that people talk about. Oh but wait! There's more crazy to come:
"Oh and you will go to jail for not paying... So, [sic] you'd be in jail with a popsicle[sic] stick for a cure. URGGGGGGG!!" then " And anything beyond a bad fart will be out of pocket!!!"
OK so at this point I have a headache. How do you fight this much ignorance? These people receive a flood of information that is complete bull but these people are more than willing to eat it up. Information Lemmings waking right off the cliff of stupidity. Of course there is one more post that is really the cherry on top and what I think is the real reason that we will not get health care reform:
"Oh yeah--- Unconstitutionally - they will pull funds right out of your bank account without your consent...your assets will be SEIZED. ~All for someone else's healthcare ~"
So I have already heard this one before, it is basically some conservatives who may or may not know what they are doing not being able to read legalese. There is a provision to allow pay roll withdrawals if you want to have them, and after it talks about that it says very clearly that it is not mandatory.
There are a few more posts but the main stupidgazim is over at this point and dies down.
Now many reading this will not be surprised by this series of posts, you have probably witnessed essentially the same arguments put up whenever health care is mentioned. What I would like is for someone to help me understand where this comes from. Specifically why people will believe this stuff without bothering to look any of it up? Why is it so easy to believe the unbelievable? And God forbid if someone points out how wrong they are. They dig in and defend the indefensible, as if they were married to these ideas. I will post again soon a debate I had with another wingnut friend about a posting that they did involving a video that Glenn Beck posted to YouTube using information that he stole from a conservative blogger, the person posting on facebook making the mistake of telling everyone to CHECK IT OUT!!! LOOK UP THIS IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE IT!!! etc... and I did just that. Then I am the bad guy when I point out the silliness. But anyway that is for another day....
Goodnight and don't let the wingnuts bite
The first wingnut to post makes a snide remark that this is how everyone will live if there is health care reform...ok...that is the exact opposite of reform but also tame and expected. But that was just the primer for wingnut number two, a more vocal and misinformed person who should be used as an anecdote for the state of paranoia that the 'typical' American has been infected with. Person number two starts this little gem:
"...if this Commie Health care bill passes, you will pay $16,000 per year ($8k ea)... and still need the Popsicle stick."
That one is not to far off, according to the media matters website it would be $5300 for individuals and $15,000 for families. The person in question did not have insurance so $15,000 may be close for his family. This ignores the fact that current averages for health insurance is over $7000 per year per person (Google it if you want a citation). So I guess the argument is that reform would not be effective. OK I will go with that, this is a reasonable argument to make, health care reform may not actually reform more, stagnate the market. Fine, a debate can be had with this. But the writer cannot stop there, no, the need to spread the crazy is way to strong. Here is the next post:
"It is when you have a family of 4 ---- that's when they will charge for 3 and give you the 4th ^free^...$24,000.00 per year on a basic plan."
What? Where does this stuff come from??? The only thing I can find with a delta between health care and $24000 is that this is the amount that if an insurance costs this or more it is subject to a huge tax. This is the Cadillac tax that people talk about. Oh but wait! There's more crazy to come:
"Oh and you will go to jail for not paying... So, [sic] you'd be in jail with a popsicle[sic] stick for a cure. URGGGGGGG!!" then " And anything beyond a bad fart will be out of pocket!!!"
OK so at this point I have a headache. How do you fight this much ignorance? These people receive a flood of information that is complete bull but these people are more than willing to eat it up. Information Lemmings waking right off the cliff of stupidity. Of course there is one more post that is really the cherry on top and what I think is the real reason that we will not get health care reform:
"Oh yeah--- Unconstitutionally - they will pull funds right out of your bank account without your consent...your assets will be SEIZED. ~All for someone else's healthcare ~"
So I have already heard this one before, it is basically some conservatives who may or may not know what they are doing not being able to read legalese. There is a provision to allow pay roll withdrawals if you want to have them, and after it talks about that it says very clearly that it is not mandatory.
There are a few more posts but the main stupidgazim is over at this point and dies down.
Now many reading this will not be surprised by this series of posts, you have probably witnessed essentially the same arguments put up whenever health care is mentioned. What I would like is for someone to help me understand where this comes from. Specifically why people will believe this stuff without bothering to look any of it up? Why is it so easy to believe the unbelievable? And God forbid if someone points out how wrong they are. They dig in and defend the indefensible, as if they were married to these ideas. I will post again soon a debate I had with another wingnut friend about a posting that they did involving a video that Glenn Beck posted to YouTube using information that he stole from a conservative blogger, the person posting on facebook making the mistake of telling everyone to CHECK IT OUT!!! LOOK UP THIS IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE IT!!! etc... and I did just that. Then I am the bad guy when I point out the silliness. But anyway that is for another day....
Goodnight and don't let the wingnuts bite
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